Episode 57 – You can also listen on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcasts, and Amazon Music

About the Episode:

Are you interested in learning more about forest bathing (or maybe what it is to begin with)? Johanna DeBiase is a certified Nature Therapy Guide with the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy Guides and a great person to learn from. Find out more about her and her business, “All of Us Stardust” on this episode.

Links
Johanna’s website 
Johanna’s Instagram
I Love New Mexico blog page
Bunny’s website
I Love New Mexico Instagram
I Love New Mexico Facebook 

Original Music by: Kene Terry

Featuring:

Johanna DeBiase

Johanna DeBiase is a certified Nature Therapy Guide with the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy Guides. She is also a yoga and meditation instructor, and Reiki practitioner, as well as an author and collage artist. As the creatrix at All of Us Stardust, she offers online courses to help people to rediscover their birthright as a Nature Intuitive and to find healing in reciprocal relationship with the natural world. Her in-person offerings include nature writing and forest bathing in Taos, New Mexico. Johanna lives off the grid in a 900 sq. ft. straw bale home with her husband, teen daughter and collie on a high windy mesa near the Rio Grande Gorge.

Episode Transcript

Bunny : (00:00)
Hi there. I’m Bunny Terry, and you’re listening to the I Love New Mexico podcast. Whether you’re a native new Mexican, who’s lived here for your entire life, or you’re just considering a visit, this episode is for you. Join us as we share a lot of New Mexico stories, talk about all things New Mexico, and include topics like what’s magical here, where you ought to visit, what’s happening, and the things you absolutely cannot miss in the land of Enchantment. We’re excited that you’re here and we can’t wait to show you what an amazing place New Mexico is, because let’s face it, I love New Mexico. One of the coolest things about the I Love New Mexico podcast is that I get to meet people, as I’ve said before, that I never ever would’ve met. And, um, and, and what a loss that would’ve been with today’s guest because I’m so fascinated about what she’s doing. And you’re, you’re gonna wanna stick around to the end because, um, you’re, you’re likely gonna want to schedule, um, a walk through the woods with Johanna DeBiase, who is today’s, um, guest on the I Love New Mexico podcast. Johanna is getting to live in one of everyone’s favorite places. Taos, New Mexico, off grid though, right Johanna?

Johanna : (01:30)
That’s right. Yep.

Bunny : (01:31)
Yep. So, rather than me talking about you, I wanna hear all about you and I wanna hear about what you’re doing. What is this business you’ve got going on?

Johanna : (01:42)
Um, yes, thank you so much for having me here. Um, I live in Taos. I’ve lived here since 2005, got married here, had a child here, and in 2020 we moved off the grid about 30, um, minutes, 20 miles west of the town of Taos, along the gorge. And I am a nature therapy guide. I also teach yoga. I’m also a writer and writing instructor. I teach nature writing as well, and, um, an artist too. So I wear a lot of hats. And, um, what I really wanted to talk to you about today was nature therapy and forest bathing.

Bunny : (02:32)
Okay, so that’s got me really interested the forest bathing piece, because it sounds like there are incredible benefits. But first, tell folks, um, what the name of your business is and where they can find you. ’cause I know while they’re listening, they’re gonna be scrolling, trying to figure out where you are.

Johanna : (02:49)
So, yes. Um, my business is, um, called All of Us Stardust. That’s all of us. stardust.com is where you can reach me, and I also offer online courses in nature therapy, in nature intuition, in nature writing. So that’s a really good place to find all the different offers I have online and in person. Also, I’m pretty active on Instagram at all of us Stardust,

Bunny : (03:21)
So I wanna be sure people are hearing that. It’s all of us. Stardust, which is a great name, by the way.

Johanna : (03:28)
Thank you.

Bunny : (03:30)
So I am curious, first what, so let’s just jump right into, uh, we can hear the story of how you got to this later, but I wanna jump right into what it is, um, that you do on a typical, um, nature. In a typical nature therapy session, what happens, um, with your clients? What do you, where do you take them? What do they do? And what are the benefits?

Johanna : (03:57)
Okay, yes. I love talking about forest bathing. Um, forest bathing actually began in Japan, uh, and it’s called Hinden Yoku. And it started in the eighties, nineties when a lot of the Japanese population was moving into urban areas. And the Japanese government started noticing, um, these health issues. Um, there was an increase in illness, depression, and they started doing studies and discovered that the cause was mostly due to people moving away from the rural areas, moving out of these green spaces. So in Japan, they have lots and lots of scientific studies on the benefits of being immersed in nature. Um, for example, uh, nature, just spending time in nature decreases cortisol levels. We know that high cortisol levels increase risk of disease, um, stress, anxiety, um, you know, all diabetes, respiratory issues, cardiovascular issues. There’s so many things that elevated cortisol levels. Cause also we’ve learned that time in nature decreases the NK cells. Those are the natural killer cells natural killer cells which fight disease and increase immunity and decrease all our risks of illness. So, um, lots of studies, scientific studies that have already proven time in nature is beneficial to people. Um, they’ve also found it decreases anxiety, decreases depression, increases creativity and focus. Um, just so lots of just psychological physical benefits. They’ve even found that people in a hospital room with a view of a natural setting or even pictures of natural setting heal faster than people that do not. Wow. In the same way. That’s interesting. Even listening to nature sounds, um, is healing for people. So any of that connection to the natural world, which makes sense. We evolved in nature and outdoors for thousands of years. Mm-hmm. . So this is only the modern, uh, contemporary times that we’re in, where we are so disconnected from nature, it’s new for us. So of course our bodies, um, will do better in nature. Um, they’ve also noticed that trees give off a essence like an essential oil essence called ides that, um, help heal humans. So there’s this really cooperative relationship. So the forest bathing or forest therapy that we do in the United States, really the emphasis, it’s not that we de-emphasize health, health is just a natural byproduct of forest bathing, but the emphasis is also on being in relationship with the natural world, being in a reciprocal relationship with the natural world. So the idea is that helping people engage more with nature will increase their sense of belonging, of, um, connection to the natural world. And it’s also really great for people who have eco anxiety, which unfortunately because of the climate crisis, a lot of people are having ecological grief issues because it reestablishes that connection with the natural world that we honestly all need. We’ve all become disconnected just from our indoor lives. And all the conveniences of grocery stores and cars and everything have really set begun to separate us from the natural world.

Bunny : (07:57)
Well, I was just curious I mean, so the theory, so I get that theory, but, and I’m, and I’m, I’m fascinated by that because, um, I know just in, I, I’ve written a book and I have a writing coach, and she will say to me, always when I’m stuck, go for a walk. Just go for a walk. Go for a walk outside, don’t go for a walk around the building, inside the building. It’s go outside, look up. So I know that just from a practical standpoint, it’s almost like your brain resets itself, doesn’t it? It’s, yeah. And so you’re doing this on a much larger scale.

Johanna : (08:41)
Yes. And just to that, I wanna say, they have also done studies where people have gone for a walk in an urban area around a building. People have gone for a walk in nature. And the benefits of going for a walk in nature far outweigh the benefits of an urban walk. Also, the more time spent in nature, the longer the effects last aspo. So any amount of time spent in nature is great. The longer you’re out there, the longer the positive effects will benefit you.

Bunny : (09:12)
That’s so cool. And so

Johanna : (09:14)

Bunny : (09:15)
Nature bathing, I’m, I’m dying to hear how it really works. .

Johanna : (09:19)
So, you know, a lot of people probably think they’re already na forest bathing because they go for a bike ride or a hike or something through the wilderness. And of course those are great things to do also. But often when we’re traipsing through the forest, we’re not really taking time to connect fully. We’re usually have a destination of mind. We wanna get somewhere or accomplish something. Forest bathing has no goal. There’s no set goal. Uh, as your guide, I would take you somewhere, um, that we together would kind of determine what your preferences are. If you wanna be, you know, in the gorge or if you wanna be in the forest or in the park. And basically we spend two to three hours where I give you invitations. They’re generally sensory invitations that help you to connect more deeply with nature through your senses. And what happens, you really have to experience it to understand it, is that very quickly people sort of enter this whole new space. We call it liminal space. So think about your nervous systems, downregulating, your smelling the air, you’re feeling the breeze on. Those phyton sides are doing their work. And you begin to sort of enter a new space where you feel more connected to the natural world around you. And there’s several different invitations. Sometimes the invitations, it just depends. I’ll kind of read the room and I might give invitations that are creative. I might give an invitation that, um, is more in the imagination or the imaginal realm. And I give people 20 minutes to go on their own and explore. And the invitation is just that it’s an invitation. So you don’t have to do it. You have your experience your way. And then we come back after each invitation, we do a very simple share, little share circle before we go out onto the next invitation.

Bunny : (11:45)
So Johan Johanna, just give me like, like what’s an example of an invitation? What’s like, just state one that you might use?

Johanna : (11:53)
I wonder what it would be like to touch everything, or I wonder what the forest feels like. So they’re really open-ended. Um, I wonder if there is a smell you might want to follow. Um, maybe as we immerse more and more there might be an invitation, like following your heart sense. Is there a nature being that you want to sit with? I wonder what would happen if you introduce yourself? Wow, I like that. So that it could go, you know, again, I’m sort of feeling out what sure what is, um, of interest to people. And also the forest is really, um, helping me. So I’m co-creating with the forest, it’s giving me little clues. So if I’m in the forest and I see the clouds are really amazing today, we might have an invitation to lie down on our back and watch the clouds. So, um, and if it’s raining, there might be an invitation to feel the rain. So it’s really depends on what is happening in the moment. The people that are there, we say in forest therapy that the forest is the therapy and we’re just the guide. So I’m not a therapist, I’m just guiding people to help them get the therapeutic benefits of the forest. And then each, um, forest walk ends with a tea, a tea picnic. Um, so that’s comes from the Japanese model where they do traditional tea ceremonies. I don’t do that, um, because I don’t know how to do a traditional tea ceremony. I’m not Japanese, but we always have, um, and with sort of a ceremonial tea or a ritual tea, um, where we share forest tea. And it depends, many times I’ll gather tea from the forest on our walk. So I’ll bring a big thermos of hot water and I might gather pine needles or juniper berries, or depending on the season, maybe some yaro, um, or whatever’s around that I know is 110% safe or I might, before the walk I might bring things from my garden, some fresh lavender or basil or peppermint from my garden, do more of a garden tea just depending on the season and the area we’re going to. And we just have a sort of a clo a time to close and really feel into the experience and what we got out of it. And it’s a really a lovely way to finish the forest walk.

Bunny : (14:47)
Well, I’m interested to hear what feedback you’ve gotten back from people. I mean, have you had folks who were really, um, sort of stressed by their urban environment and then they come out and spend the time and and tell you afterwards what a huge difference it made for them?

Johanna : (15:06)
Yes. Everybody absolutely loves it. , everybody has a great experience. Um, I’ve had people where they don’t love to get dirty, you know, they’re really hesitant to sit on a log or touch the tree.

Bunny : (15:25)
Oh, wow. Yeah.

Johanna : (15:27)
And I get that, you know, maybe their partner was more into it than they were, and I could totally understand that. But even they get something out of it, I always see them finding their own way into the experience and their own benefits of it. It might not be the same for everyone, but everyone loves it. It’s just a really, it’s hard not to like it unless you’re completely resistant to the idea of relaxing, in which case, you know, you probably aren’t going to do this experience.

Bunny : (16:03)
Well. I think I suspect that there might be partners who drag their other partner along saying, I need for you to relax . And, and, and it’s gotta have some benefit for those people as well. So, so here’s the funny thing. When you talked about forest bathing, I thought we’re all gonna take our clothes off and get in the stream. Mm. But you are saying you’re bathed in the essence of the outdoors and the forest. Okay, that’s

Johanna : (16:29)
Yes.

Bunny : (16:30)
That is so hilarious. I was thinking,

Johanna : (16:32)
Sorry to disappoint you, .

Bunny : (16:34)
No, no, I was thinking, I don’t wanna do that ’cause it’s gonna be cold

Johanna : (16:40)
And know their invitation. So if somebody decides to take off their clothes and jump in the river, you know, that’s their, that’s hilarious experience. I’m not gonna stop them unless it’s not safe. Of course, I am certified in wilderness first aid and all that stuff, . So, and I always warn people about the things to be aware of and the area from poison ivy to bears, you know. So, um,

Bunny : (17:04)
, so, um, where are you, where are you doing this? This is, is this in Carson National Forest? Where are you

Johanna : (17:09)
Primarily? Primarily. Okay.

Bunny : (17:12)
Well, and um, just so, because I always wanna be mindful of people who are listening to us who have maybe never been to New Mexico and, and or maybe never been to the Taos area. Can you sort of describe our location within the state and, and what it, what it’s like geographically and topographically? Oh, yeah.

Johanna : (17:36)
Taos is in northern New Mexico. We’re about an hour and a half north of Santa Fe, two hours north of Albuquerque, about an hour and a half from the Colorado border. Taos is a really diverse ecosystem because we’re at the southern end of the song Great. Of Christo Mountains. So we have these high alpine peaks. One of the highest mountains in New Mexico is here in New in Taos. Um, and then we also have these high mesa stretches of Sagebrush, and we have the Rio Grande Gorge, which is a national monument. Um, it is an 800 foot drop at its deepest, where the famous, um, Gorge Bridge passes over it. And it’s also really famous for rafting. There’s a lot of rapids intense rapids that go through the gorge. Um, so we have a lot of different, so we have a, a lot of the rivers and the mountains and the, um, the sage brush planes.

Bunny : (18:48)
I really think that, for folks who haven’t been there, Taos is, like you said, one of the most, um, geographically and topographically diverse places in the state because you do have that space out west. And as you approach Taos from the south, which is almost, I mean, it is, it’s high desert. It’s obviously high desert, and then you, um, get in and, and the gorge, um, I think we’ll have to include a picture of the gorge in the post just so that people who haven’t been here, which is unimaginable, I can’t imagine anybody ever not going to Taos, but we wanna include a picture of that. But then you’re immediately at, I mean, what is the elevation? I mean, those peaks are like at 12, 13,000 feet, right? Mm-hmm. , the elevation is significant. Yeah. So, um, you also, I don’t, I don’t wanna miss a chance to talk about the writing in nature work that you do, because I’m as a, as a writer, I think, um, that’s such an important piece and I know, and I know it, it appeals to a lot of people.

Johanna : (19:57)
Yeah. So I was a professional writer for over two decades. Um, and when the pandemic hit, I found a way to continue teaching by taking writing outdoors. And I started offering nature writing in a local park here in Taos. And, and that is what led me to nature therapy, actually, because I was enjoying nature writing, teaching so much. I wanted to learn how can I get people more into this experience of nature so their writing could be even more alive and more embodied. And when I trained to become a nature therapy guide through the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy Guides, I discovered that a lot of the forest therapy that I was learning, I was already really doing with my students. And so it’s kind of ended up being a combination of forest bathing and writing. In fact, I created another experience called Rewild Your Words in which we do forest bathing. And when we come back for the share circle, we first write for about 10 minutes before sharing so that people leave with writing. And then during our Tea circle, we might share some of the writing. The nature writing workshops I do are more geared towards writing, but I do have people engaging with the natural world more. So I have a great story about somebody, I think it was last week, he was a retired school teacher from Queens. And I gave him that invitation that I mentioned earlier about, you know, go find a nature being and sit with it, maybe introduce yourself, see what happens, and write about whatever comes out. A lot of my teaching emphasizes the idea of releasing our critical mind, um, that, you know, that writer’s critic that sits on our shoulder and tells us what we’re writing isn’t any good. So how do we release that? Yeah, yeah. We need to really, um, just allow the writing to flow. So we do free writing, we use our breath, and I give people just permission to write badly. And he went and he had this really beautiful, in-depth experience with the tree, and he came back and told me about it. He was so excited. He said, I never thought I would talk to a tree ever in my life, . I love that. And it just warmed my heart. And he wrote some, a really beautiful piece about it as well. So not only did he get to have that experience, but then he had this record of it and this beautiful piece of writing about it, which is really, to me, that was like, my work here is done. I’ve created a connection with some, for somebody with the natural world they wouldn’t have otherwise had. And already it’s opening people’s minds to this idea of our relationship to the natural world of that reconnection and perceiving the natural world, not as this object outside of us, but really as part of this greater web that we all belong to with their own existence, their own being, um, separate from us, but the same as us as well.

Bunny : (23:29)
And are your writing workshops, I mean, are they over a period of time? Are they one, uh, meeting? How does, how does it work?

Johanna : (23:39)
They are two hour workshops that people can book with me. It’s usually Sunday and Wednesday mornings, but I’m open to other days if people are interested. They often do end up being one on one. I, if only one person books, I will do a one-on-one session. So that’s really special. I also created an online course. So for people who can’t come to Taos, I have a course called Intuitive Eco Writing that mirrors that two hour session. That, but you do it on your own, at your own pace.

Bunny : (24:15)
And do you find I mean, I think this seems like sort of a, a there’s an a an evident answer to this, but do you find that when people come and spend time with you in nature, whether it’s riding or nature bathing, um, forest bathing, sorry. Um, do you find that they’re then a little more mindful of their own impact on nature?

Johanna : (24:40)
That’s the hope, right? That is the hope, right? That, that that connection that they create will then ripple out into other areas of their life, maybe even into their community. They are sharing the writing that they create or telling friends about their experience. Yeah. The hope ideally is that this ripples out and has a greater effect because this sort of way of thinking, this disconnection and this way of objectifying nature is just a resource is obviously created a lot of problems for us. We’re in this climate crisis. Unfortunately, the systems that are um, have the most power to make change haven’t quite stepped up as much as they should yet. And so, um, you know, hopefully as individuals, just by shifting the way we perceive nature, we can begin to take changes on our own.

Bunny : (25:40)
Well, I love what you’re doing, Johanna, and it, and it’s obvious that you’re really passionate about it. So for anyone who, um, is interested, we’ve got links to where you can find Johanna and where you can do a little, um, forest bathing on your own and swimsuits are optional, obviously . But, I’m, so, I so appreciate that you, um, were willing to come and talk to us about it, because I think this can be life changing for some people.

Johanna : (26:11)
Yeah, I hope so. I also have a blog that I do with my husband where we talk about living off the grid too. People are interested in that aspect of New Mexico. It’s called our uncertain future.com. And you kind of read about our trials and successes in, in experimenting with this off the grid life out here on the mesa, where we have to collect all our own water, because as I said, the gorge is so deep we can’t really dig a well easily.

Bunny : (26:48)
No, and, and you know, I, and I gotta tell you, um, obviously it’s working because you have, you have great internet up there, so Yes. Um, yes. So, um, I, and I have a lot of, I have a lot of clients who come to Santa Fe and they’ll say, oh, we have this dream of living off grid. And I always say, investigate it. So that’s, that’s a great resource. We’ll have a link to that as well. Great. Yeah. So thank you, Johanna. You’re doing good things in New Mexico. I appreciate it. Thank

Johanna : (27:16)
You so much, Bunny. Thank you for hosting me today.